Regular readers of this blog might remember that in September 2008 I blogged about YouWriteOn’s offer to publish the first 5,000 writers who submitted their work, and that I wrote a few more blog posts about YouWriteOn in the subsequent months. YouWriteOn’s publishing scheme was ill-conceived and badly organised: few books were actually published by the deadline of Christmas of that year, the books which were published were full of errors, were prone to some very dodgy covers, and the listings on Amazon were also full of errors with titles, cover images and author-names wildly mismatched. Despite the huge amount of attention YouWriteOn’s publishing scheme attracted from the online community I’m not aware of any of the books which were published as a result of this scheme enjoying any great success, although I’d love to hear about any which did.
I heard yesterday that on Tuesday of last week, YouWriteOn.com Ltd was dissolved.
This doesn’t seem to have affected the main YouWriteOn website, which remains in place. While the YouWriteOn message board seemed active and busy yesterday I didn’t find any discussions regarding the end of the company: perhaps the writers there are not aware of the situation, or perhaps I didn’t look hard enough–do feel free to post a link or two in the discussions if you know where they are.
It could be, of course, that YouWriteOn.com Ltd isn’t connected with the YouWriteOn website and message board, and dealt only with the publishing scheme: that’s entirely possible since the nature of the company’s business was listed at Companies House as “Publishing of books”, and YouWriteOn is involved in a lot more than just publishing: it has an extensive and useful feedback-and-review system, and a message board for its members. However, YouWriteOn is involved in a couple of other writing-related pies.
There’s The Next Big Author, which is clearly affilliated with YouWriteOn despite it’s different name: much of the text on the website bears a remarkable similarity in tone and phrasing to the text on the YouWriteOn website and not only does The Next Big Author work on the same principles as YouWriteOn (only without its own message board), it tells all interested parties to post their work on YouWriteOn’s feedback system.
I can’t be sure that The Next Big Author site remains active as its blog hasn’t been updated since August of this year, and my cursory glance around its website uncovered no active competitions. But never fear: FeedARead is ready to step into the gap. It’s been touted by YouWriteOn as “FeedARead.com – new Arts Council funded publishing site”. FeedARead doesn’t mess about with message boards or feedback systems: it’s a straightforward publishing scheme which entices writers to sign up by promising this:
Our Arts Council funding enables us to give higher royalties than the norm of the largest publishers in the industry.
That claim sounds sadly familiar. In 2008 YouWriteOn made a similar claim about the high royalties it would pay on its publishing scheme: it omitted to mention that it paid royalties on nett, while trade publishers paid royalties on cover price, and that once this difference was accounted for, YouWriteOn’s royalties were on the poor side.
At the beginning of this month, many of the books which were originally published by YouWriteOn were transferred to FeedARead, apparently without the authors of those books being informed or consulted. YouWriteOn members asked on the YWO message board how it was possible for a particular YouWriteOn author who was quoted on the FeedARead website to have praised YouWriteOn’s publishing scheme as she had died before her book was published; and that her book had been published a considerable time before June 2011 when FeedARead was launched. Subsequently that author’s quote was removed from the FeedARead site, and that discussion on the YouWriteOn message board has now been heavily edited, and many posts deleted. You’ll see that the title of the thread is “Is this YWO in another guise?”, but the discussion begins with series of links from YouWriteOn itself, praising its own services, which isn’t an appropriate title for a puff-thread like that: and the comments which follow seem to be part of an entirely different discussion–because they were, before the rest of the thread was deleted.
My guess is that now YouWriteOn.com Ltd has been dissolved, FeedARead is soon going to absorb YouWriteOn’s publishing arm and The Next Big Author is going to take over the YouWriteOn website and message board. If I were to be really cynical I’d suggest that this was happening because Arts Council England wasn’t prepared to hand over any more funding to YouWriteOn, but that new organisations would still be able to attract funding: as I’ve already mentioned, FeedARead is already in receipt of Arts Council funding. Much of this is conjecture on my part, of course, and if I’m wrong I apologise unreservedly to everyone concerned. If I’m right, though, it’s a pretty cynical manouvre by the person or people behind YouWriteOn and FeedARead.
Finally, what about all the authors who have been published by the now apparently-defunct YouWriteOn? The standard contract which I saw in 2008 didn’t provide for the rights to their books to be transferred to another publisher, regardless of whether the authors were consulted or not; and no one on the YouWriteOn message board seems aware that their publisher has now been dissolved. I have to wonder how any rights tied to YouWriteOn have been handled: have those rights been transferred en masse to FeedARead without a word to the authors? were the rights properly reverted to the writers prior to YouWriteOn being dissolved? or has YouWriteOn’s publishing arm simply been closed down with no notice or information given to the writers concerned? If the latter is the case, how can the writers concerned reclaim their rights? Is it even possible? And if the former is true, what legal rights did FeedARead and YouWriteOn have to do this? what amendments have been made to the writers’ contracts along the way? Do their contracts remain enforceable? and how will this affect the authors concerned?
*****
Updated 29 October 2011
I’ve been asked why the closure of YouWriteOn is such a big deal when FeedARead is now apparently taking over its publishing activities. These are some of the issues and questions I’d want responses to if I were involved with YouWriteOn, but please bear in mind that this contains a lot of supposition, some or all of which might well be wrong; I’ve not checked the original YouWriteOn contract so I could be wrong; and I’m not a lawyer and so none of this should be taken as legal advice.
1) Now that YouWriteOn has been dissolved (and as far as I can tell, this was a voluntary closure and not one forced upon it by any financial constraints) does it still exist as a legal or financial entity? Will it continue to operate as a sole trader? Or will it now simply cease to exist?
2) From what I remember of the original YouWriteOn contract it had no provision for transferring rights to another company. There was no information in the contract about how this would be done if the matter arose; the authors who signed up to YouWriteOn did not agree to this being a possibility. So by transferring its books to FeedARead , YouWriteOn could well be in breach of the contracts it holds with its writers.
3) I doubt that it’s legal to transfer contracts to a new company without the prior knowledge and agreement of the writers under contract, as was the case with the transfer of contracts from YouWriteOn to FeedARead .
4) I don’t think it’s legal to announce that contracts are being transferred and the people involved have to opt out if they don’t want to be included in the move. As I understand it, a specific effort to opt-in is required.
5) As writers were given the opportunity to opt out of the transfer of their books to FeedARead, what happens to the ones who remained with YouWriteOn now that YouWriteOn has been dissolved and if YouWriteOn now ceases trading?
6) I’m not aware of any writers being sent a contract for their publication by FeedARead. If new contracts have not been issued and FeedARead offers books for sale, it’s selling those books without the rights to do so.
7) Has anyone been offered the chance to negotiate the FeedARead contract? Have any industry professionals assessed the new contract and if not, are you sure it’s worth signing?
8) I’ve been told that the FeedARead contract gives higher royalties than the YouWriteOn contract: what level of royalties are on offer, and how are they calculated? Are you aware that if the royalties are calculated against net price rather than against cover price, and “net price” is not clearly defined, then it’s possible you’re going to get nothing? The original YouWriteOn contract gave royalties of 60% paid on net, but as net was not clearly defined the royalties actually paid were often below those usually paid by trade publishers.
9) What happened to the royalties owed from the last batch of sales made by YouWriteOn?
- YouWriteOn should have sent out final royalty statements to authors once the transfer of their books to FeedARead was complete, and paid them any amounts due at that stage.
- If YouWriteOn didn’t send out those final statements and royalties and it has ceased to exist as a legal entity it can no longer issue those final statements nor can it pay those royalties. Are the authors affected going to have to bear the loss on these sales?
- One can’t expect FeedARead to cover those royalties as FeedARead didn’t benefit from the sales involved.
- Did anyone receive a final statement from YouWriteOn, along with the appropriate royalty payment, before YouWriteOn closed? If not, how do you expect to be paid for those sales now YouWriteOn is closed?
- See point 5 above. What happens to the royalties due to authors who chose to remain with YouWriteOn if YouWriteOn has now ceased trading?
10) I don’t think ISBNs can be transferred from publisher to publisher unless one publisher acquires another, which doesn’t seem to be the case here, because it’s been presented as a transfer of assets—the rights to publish books, with the authors concerned having a say in what happens to their books—rather than an imprint acquisition—which would be a business takeover. If that’s so, then the FeedARead editions are going to need new ISBNs as these will be new editions of the books: who will pay for those ISBNs?
11) Publishers are legally required to lodge copies of each of their books with the British Library. I seem to remember that YouWriteOn failed to comply with this legal requirement. Is FeedARead going to do the same with the new editions it seems to be publishing, or will it too fail in this instance?
12) Amazon is currently returning a list of 718 titles when I search for books published by YouWriteOn, and just 50 from FeedARead. Are those 718 YouWriteOn titles now orphaned? Has the transfer to FeedARead stuttered to a halt? Or is the transfer still ongoing?
Those are the points that come immediately to mind, but I bet ‘ll think of more as more information comes to light. For example, the new FeedARead contract might have clauses which are contradictory or unclear, and so on.
What saddnes me about things like FeedaRead is that it has Arts Council funding at a time when some amazing publishers are struggling to hold onto theirs.
I wouldn’t read anything into the messageboards – they are very heavily moderated over there so the chances are that if there were threads about this they’d be removed.
I have fond memories of Youwriteon the site – it was where I first ventured my writing into the public domain, learned a huge amount, and met people who have become really good real-life friends. I’d never have gone anywhere without them, let alone gallavanting off touring my own live literary show at festivals and fringes.
On the other hand there have been let-downs – for example, an editor at Random House offering to mentor me, but Youwriteon insisting on acting as go-between and never doing so; the “prizewinners” antholgy of short stories being so poorly formatted it would embarrass any “how-not-to” guide (have you seen a copy? I’ll send you one if not for SPR – I’m too embarrassed to give any to friends – we often hear that you should self-publish well in order to avoid looking like a numpty: well the worst self-published book I’ve seen is better than this fiasco. And I’ve been very lucky not to have anything to do with their self-publishing scheme, about which I’ve heard nightmare stories.
Or the domain just hasn’t expired yet.
The domain renewal isn’t until Aug of 2012…I bet no one renews it then.
Dan Holloway wrote:
I know, Dan: it makes me very angry. Especially when you think of the huge amount of funding that YWO had–over £85k–and all of the writers who ended up with horribly-published books.
YWO’s original function–the feedback, the critiques, and the agent/editor help–was so very useful to so many people. If only YWO had concentrated on just this, instead of dipping its toes into vanity publishing: that scheme is what gave YWO its bad name.
I’ve not seen a copy of that anthology but don’t send me one: I don’t review books unless the authors are totally happy with me doing so, and there’s bound to be at least one person who would find it too upsetting. Otherwise I’d love to.
And the YWO publishing scheme wasn’t self-publishing, it was vanity publishing–there’s a clear difference. If YWO had offered self-publishing assistance in some way it could have avoided all that nasty coverage, and helped writers reach their goals instead of landing them with mostly unsaleable books.
Yes, absolutely – the covers, the formatting, and the service were all a total shambles – all so much worse than if people had just self-published, and all the more reprehensible because they were under the impression it would be less work on their part for a better result.
And the antyhology – I absolutely didn’t mean for review, that would be unfair on all the authors involved – just so you could see the full horror of it! Being included in the anthology was the “prize” for the very best short stories on the site – I think we were all expecting something at least approaching Salt’s Best of British Stories. Instead we’ve all lost first print rights to our best work for the sake of something we can’t even show friends and family because it’s so embarrasing – to give an idea, for some reason someone thought it would be a good idea to do most (I say most advisedly) stories in Times New Roman 12 point (fine – although the margins would break every green belt law going) but put the contents in Courier 16 point.
I had no idea of the amounts involved. That makes me feel rather sick.
Great blog Jane and you bring up some very interesting questions regarding the implications for Youwriteon.com publishing contracts. I have a couple of questions to add on this matter and some points to make about the legal status of the company itself. I shall discuss the legal status of the company first.
FeedARead does not appear to be a limited company. In fact, there is not information the website that I can find which indicates what the legal status of the company is. If anyone else has managed to find any information please let me know, below. According to the Business Link website (quoted verbatim below) Limited Companies must display the following information on their website
‘Information you must display
On all business letters, order forms and websites, you must display:
• the place of registration
• the registered number
• the address of registered office
• the fact that it is a limited company or LLP
• the amount of paid up share capital, if you have chosen to display your share capital
• information if the company or LLP is being wound up’
None of this information is on the FeedARead website so I assume it must be the trading name of a sole trader or partnership. It is notable that none of the above information is shown on the Youwriteon.com website either. I would for example, have expected to find it on the publishing pages. Note in particular the last bullet point – surely this should by now have appeared on the YWO.com website.
According to the Business Link website Sole Traders must display the following information, again I quote verbatim –
Sole Traders/Partnerships
‘Displaying a sole trader or partnership business name
If you are a sole trader or partnership, your business name, your own name, or the partners’ names and business address must be clearly displayed in most cases:
• wherever you run your business and deal with customers or suppliers
• on all business letters, orders, payments, invoices, receipts and other business documents
Displaying a name online
If your business has a website, you must display:
• general information about your business – including business name, address, email address, VAT registration number (if applicable)
• details of any relevant professional body that you belong to or any authorisation scheme to which your service is subject.’
The FeedARead website does not display the business address nor any other information about the company set up, for that matter. Thus, I am unable to find out who the person/s behind the business is. However, for the purposes of this query let’s call him Mr X.
Back to the subject of contracts and I must point out that I know very little about publishing contracts so excuse any stupid questions. My questions are this:
1. If Mr X is a sole trader, trading as FeedAread, then presumably any contract will be between him personally and the author in question?
2. Presumably he will have to disclose his name on any contract – A contract must fall under the definition of ‘other business documents)?
3. At what point in the process does the customer actually find out he/she is dealing with Mr X?
4. What are the implications of having a contract with a sole trader should the business fail?
5. Are there many publishing companies that run as sole traders?
Reference, Business Link: http://www.businesslink.gov.uk/bdotg/action/detail?itemId=1073788946&type=RESOURCES
I’ve been sent a link to a discussion about this post which has now been started at YouWriteOn, and I’d like to clear up a couple of points which have been made in that thread.
1) YouWriteOn.com was a limited company, and it has now been dissolved: you can establish that for yourselves by looking at the link to the Companies House website that I provided in my original post. Companies House is not in the habit of falsifying information on its website in order to provide me with blog-fodder, however much fun I might think that would be.
2) It is not necessary to “register with yet another blogging company” in order to comment here: that’s just not true. I’ve just shown that by logging out of my admin role here, and making a comment here without providing any information other than my name–you can see my test-comment here.
3) If you’re published by YouWriteOn you have not self-published: you’re vanity-published. Your publisher is listed as YWO on your copyright page; you have no control over the production of your own book, you’re sent royalty statements by YWO… there are all sorts of pointers that this is not self-publishing. If you’re unsure of the difference, here are two quick summaries of the various differences and if you want any more information, just let me know: I’ll be happy to clarify things for you.
4) I have always considered YouWriteOn’s feedback system, and the professional critiques it offers to its most successful members, to be a very valuable resource. I used to point new writers towards YWO just because of these things and I know of many writers who found it valuable, just as Dan did. The vanity-publishing scheme, however, was not only a terrible idea, it was, as Dan has already said, a complete shambles. I cannot now support any part of YWO.
I would still like to hear of any writers who have been published by YWO who have made a success of their books. I’d love to hear of anyone who has sold a significant number of books, for example, or who has reached any credible best-seller lists as a direct result of their YWO editions. Do please let us know about your successes. And if you’d like me to review your books on my other blog you only have to ask–I’ve reviewed at least YWO book there quite favourably in the past and would like to have the opportunity to see more.
Right, can someone do me a favour and tell Ms Smith I cannot get into her site! I’ve tried several times and each time it refuses to accept my comment, with or without my web address or anything else. I’ve no idea why. I can see her comments but cannot reply to them. Maybe someone else can get in there and see if they can leave one. Copy and paste this if you want to. I’m no silly little chicken either. I’m a 62 year old woman who would love to put a comment up there. Maybe Ms Smith will see this for herself and respond again. I’ve no wish to get into a fight, I’m trying to give YWO and Ted a vote of confidence. I had no idea YWO was a limited company. I’ve never seen that written anywhere in over three years of membership. We all use this site and have benefited greatly from it, myself included. It’s the best place to workshop your writing before you decide to send it out or publish it with whomever you choose. Mistakes have been made in the past with the publishing side of things, but since all that settled down there are many members who’ve taken advantage and used the YWO publishing system to great advantage, myself included. Although I have now settled for e publishing in the main to keep the costs down, I still intend to have second editions of my paperbacks using The new FAR system. Come on, members, let’s support Ted and YWO. Without this site many would have floundered instead of getting the chances we’ve been given. I’ve read so many great Indie books written by members here. If you can get into MS Smith’s website then tell her about your books and the sales. All of you got that opportunity because of Ted and his hard work. Please give him your support now. Don’t let him down.
Pam Howes wrote:
Pam, I’m going to assume that someone else has copied this comment here for you, from the YWO message board—because otherwise this is just too surreal. Ha!
I don’t know why you can’t comment here. I’ve not heard of anyone else having a similar problem. Have you filled in the Captcha code properly? If not, you’ll get an error message asking you to have another go, which isn’t too difficult. If that’s not the problem, what exactly is the error message you’re getting? Can you tell me the exact wording? As you obviously can’t let me know here, you can email me on “hprw AT tesco DOT net” and let me know and I’ll do what I can to sort this out. I don’t like to think of anyone being shut out of my blog, so long as they’re posting here with good heart.
That “silly little chicken” comment of mine was intended as a joke. I’m sorry if you didn’t find it funny. It can be difficult to convey tone properly online.
I’m not trying to get into a fight either: I’m just reporting what I’ve discovered.
As I wrote above, I’ve always liked the workshopping aspect of YWO. I know a lot of writers have gained a lot from it, and that’s really great. I dispute that it’s the best place to go for such help, though: there are plenty of other writers’ forums, many of which have a membership which is more experienced and successful than that of YouWriteOn: consider AbsoluteWrite and WriteWords, for example. But that doesn’t mean that YWO’s feedback system isn’t good too. Horses for courses, and all that.
I’m glad the YWO publishing scheme has worked for you. Would you be prepared to share with us how many books you’ve published with YWO? How many copies of each have you sold? At what cost? How much time have you had to spend promoting your books in order to sell them? And how much have you made out of the deal after you’ve paid your costs?
I’m not trying to be intrusive here, so please forgive my blunt tone: but these things give us very easy pointers to how successful your YWO books have been, and allow us to compare your level of success with books published by other more established means, which is why I ask.
If anyone who has published with YWO is reading this, do please let me know about your sales, and your successes. I really would love to hear about them: it’s always good to hear of anyone’s achievements. If enough of you are prepared to share, I’ll happily start a post to showcase all of your books. But please don’t think that this post of mine is about attacking Ted or YWO: I’m reporting what’s happened, and that’s all. He’s meant to be your publisher: why has he not told you that he’s dissolved YWO? Why are you hearing about this from me, and not from him? Why did he transfer your books over to a different company without even having the courtesy to let you know what was happening? It’s disturbing at best; and I’d be very concerned about the legal implications if I had a book involved in such a transfer.
If you had hoped to open a can of worms, you must be bitterly disappointed, Ms Smith. YWO members were informed earlier in the month that FeedARead (terrible name, I agree) would become the new publishing arm of You Write On, allowing YWO to revert to the original purpose of peer review and discussion. We have been told that FAR will give the authors better royalties and use the newest technology to facilitate a quick turnaround of their projects. We have the choice of leaving our books with YWO or transferring across at no extra expense. As I understand the announcements, it was hoped to get the new service up and running properly before inviting YWO authors to participate.
As someone who has lately published a joint anthology of shorts with YWO, I can vouch for the quality and efficiency of the service, although this very much depends on the writers’ ability to provide a correctly formatted ms and suitably professional cover. This is where the problem lies with the professionalism of the finished product in most cases. Writers are not usually professional designers (as I am) and have no idea what effect they are creating with their homemade covers and poorly formatted text. I have blogged about this myself: http://howesue.wordpress.com/2011/08/23/dont-spoil-the-ship-for-a-haporth-of-tar/
Much of what you say about the farcical early days of YWO publishing is true and the venture was naive, poorly conceived and executed, but it was three years ago! Much has been learned since then and I’d say the majority of members who’ve published with YWO are delighted with the results. No doubt there will be teething problems with FAR but these too will be resolved. Don’t get me wrong – I am at the very least ambivalent about the concept of self/vanity publishing, despite having done so myself – but many, many YWO members have achieved their dream of seeing their work in print. The majority will only be seen by friends and relatives, just as if they had painted a picture at evening class and hung it on their living room wall. Is it such a crime? Is it worth the venom you have discharged at YWO over the last three years?
I suggest you find something else to blog about and leave YWO, its membership and management alone.
TRYING THIS AGAIN!
Jane, thanks for your response. Yes a co YWO member copied and pasted for me. I think the problem lies with my computer not responding and not your site. Thanks for your many answers. I have a lot of questions to ask you, but I’ll email you later if I may. I see your address above for that purpose. I’ve read your postings about the difference between SP and VP and taken on board what you are saying, which leaves worries in my mind. I’m unavailable for the next few hours but will mail tonight. Thank you very much. Here goes with trying to post again. I’ve logged in and out and cleared cookies today so maybe this will “take.” Pam.
Susan Howe wrote:
I hadn’t hoped that, Ms Howe, and I can only assume you have an unpleasant agenda of your own to make such an assumption about me.
From the discussion I read on YWO’s message board, most of which has now been deleted, YWO’s authors weren’t told about this transfer of their books to FAR until after it had happened. That’s not how I like to be treated by my publishers; I’m concerned about the legalities of such a move; and I’m also concerned about how royalties will be calculated and paid by the two companies concerned. It’s a potentially big problem, and one which I’ve not seen addressed anywhere.
I’m also curious about how YWO is going to be able to “revert to the original purpose of peer review and discussion” now that it’s been dissolved. Have you been informed about that, or is it another big surprise?
So FAR will “give” you better royalties: that suggests that core clauses in your contracts have been amended as part of this transfer. Were you notified of this before the move, and given an opportunity to negotiate or disagree to those changes? Because if not, I doubt that this is legally acceptable or appropriate.
And forgive me for driving the point home, but how can your books remain with YWO now that YWO has been dissolved?
Writers aren’t usually professional editors, either, and that will often be apparent in the quality of self- and vanity-published books. You only have to look at the books I’ve reviewed on my other blog to realise that.
I’m really pleased for the writers who have had a good experience with YWO’s publishing arm. I remember the thrill of seeing my first book in print; that thrill still hasn’t lessened even now I have twenty or so books out there. It’s very rewarding, and I fully appreciate that.
What I’m less pleased about is that YWO writers are being treated without respect. YWO should at least have notified its authors that it was transferring the rights to their books to FAR before it happened; YWO members should have been notified that YWO was being dissolved. You shouldn’t have had to hear this from me. And bearing in mind that you haven’t been told about these things before they happened, I wonder what else is being hidden from you.
I made a handful of blog posts here when the YWO publishing scheme first appeared, and each one discussed specific problems with the scheme, its contract, and so on. Three years later, I’ve written a blog post in which I discuss that YWO has been dissolved and that its members and authors don’t appear to have been told about that. Both of which points are true. Can you please let me know how this is venomous?
If you take a look, I’ve made 561 posts here, and perhaps five (I’ve not counted, but you’re welcome to do so) are about YouWriteOn. That’s less than one per cent. So yes, I have found other things to write about here.
As for what I’ll write about in the future, well, you don’t get to dictate that. This is a free country, and all. I’ll continue to write about YWO and its management if I hear of anything interesting and newsworthy to discuss here, much as I’ll discuss any other publisher of interest—vanity or otherwise. But as far as talking about YWO’s membership—well, I try not to. My problem has always been with the misleading aspects of YWO’s vanity publishing scheme, and not with the people who sign up to it. If anyone from asks specific questions or says anything about me then I will address their concerns; but otherwise I prefer to argue against the point and not the person, as you’ll see if you take the time to read my blog posts properly.
Pam Howes wrote:
Yaaay! Pam! You’re in!
Pam, please thank the YWO member who posted your first message here for you: it’s good to know that people are willing to help like that. I’m sorry you had problems getting in at first, but it looks like they’re resolved now.
If you want to ask me things about YWO then I’d far rather you asked them here, in public, rather than asking me via email. I’m sorry to be so inflexible, but I’ve had a lot of trouble in the past with YWO members who I’ve helped privately, who have then misquoted and misrepresented me in public. It’s not been nice.
If, however, there’s something that you’re really worried about which you don’t want dealt with in public, do email me: I might have to ignore your message, but I will try to help if I can. Remember, you can ask your questions here anonymously if you’d rather, or with a different name; and you can ask your questions on other blog posts, so long as they’re pertinent to the ongoing discussion.
I should be offline right now. I’ll hope to hear from you later, Pam.
@ Jane Smith:
If you read my post, you will see that we had already been informed of the new publishing company before you published your blog. Our books will not be transferred to the new company without our consent, ie, we can keep the YWO imprint if we prefer, but who is going to turn down higher royalties?
We are not shareholders in YWO Ltd, merely users of a FREE peer review site, therefore it is not our business if the parent company has been dissolved. The domain name and site are still viable until later next year, and we have been informed that YWO will continue in its original incarnation. This is a good move as far as the members are concerned.
Since when has ‘infamous’ not been a derogatory term?
Susan, I think the point Jane is making is that people were not informed their books were being transfered before it happened, not that they weren’t informed before she blooged about it.
I think she’s already asked the question but how can people choice to stay with the YWO imprint if it is now defunt, as in dissolved?
I must file my nails! I meant blogged – although she may well bloog for all I know – and choose.
@ Just Curious:
8th October
‘Arts Council funded FeedARead.com is the new publishing wing and taking over the publishing side. It is just completing its remaining stages and isn’t being publicised yet. That’s the reason why we aren’t displaying details yet as it isn’t open until it reaches it’s final stage.
The separate FeedARead site has a lot more advantages: with higher royalties, and feedback from Random House and Orion every 3 months for the bestselling books, to help author development and to be considered by these publishers. Click here to view feedback from authors. The team now at FeedARead worked on every one of the books on the link, and thank you to the authors for their kind feedback on the team’s work.
If you would prefer to stay with youwriteon, you are of course welcome to, and you can email me your preference.’
Sorry but that last line does not answer my question. How can anyone stay with a company that no longer exists?
Susan Howe wrote:
Susan, thanks for responding. To clarify, I don’t dispute that you knew about the new imprint prior to my blog post: but judging by the now-deleted thread on the YWO message board, you didn’t know about it before your rights were transferred to it; and you didn’t know that YouWriteOn.com Ltd had been dissolved prior to my blog post.
Please bear in mind that higher royalties aren’t always in the author’s favour, depending on what else is in the contract, and how the royalties are calculated. For example, when the YWO publishing scheme was first announced much was made of how its incredible 60% royalty rate was higher than the 8-12% offered by most trade publishers: but as that was against net, while the trade royalties are calculated against cover price, in many cases YWO’s royalties turned out to be lower than those trade rates.
It is your business if you’re published by them, though, because YWO’s closure could affect your rights and the payments you do or don’t receive. I’ll explain how when I have more time, but meanwhile consider this: all of your ISBNs are registered to YWO. Last time I looked, ISBNs weren’t transferrable. So is FAR going to provide you with new ISBNs for your books? If so, who is going to fund that? If that doesn’t happen, how is FAR going to deal with sales of YWO books made through Amazon etc., which are collated by ISBN? If there’s no more YWO I doubt Amazon will happily send payment for those sales to FAR instead, so what’s to be done?
Bearing in mind the chaos that accompanied YWO’s first steps into publishing I don’t consider it derogatory at all, I consider it accurate. If you think otherwise, we’ll have to disagree.
Just Curious wrote:
Blooging’s fine. It sounds rather naughty, and I like that.
Just Curious wrote:
I’d like to know that too. I do hope Susan will return and explain it to us properly. And while she’s at it, I’d like it if she’d attribute the quote that she left here. I don’t like unattributed quotes on my blog: it’s copyright infringement, and that’s not good.
@ Jane Smith:
The comment is attributed to YouWriteOn, system administrator.
I don’t pretend to understand the legal implications, I’m simply repeating what I’ve been told.
The early days of YWO publishing were a mess, as I agreed above. However, the peer review site has worked well for most members and I will be glad when it reverts to that again.
One thing people tend to forget is that YWO publishing is the cheapest way I have found to get one’s stories into print, at under £60 including ISBN and distribution. If a writer simply wants a few copies for friends and family, this makes good financial sense. I reviewed someone’s (unpublishable) opening chapters last year and was appalled to hear that another vanity/self-publishing house had taken £900 from the author and all he had to show was one proof copy. I imagine this is happening on a grand scale across the globe, as unscrupulous ‘publishers’ smell desperation. With YWO, you get more than you pay for, unless you are planning to launch your book on a grand scale. In which case, why wouldn’t you try the traditional channels?
Susan, you say;
I don’t pretend to understand the legal implications, I’m simply repeating what I’ve been told.
Just because you have been told it does not make it true, and it is, or should be a cause of concern. Sadly it is not unknown for Ted Smith to dissemble. Probably the most infamous case being when after getting a bit of a slapping on the AbsoluteWrite thread challenging the YWO vanity publishing move he returned under another name to defend himself. He was caught out by his IP address. So you will understand why some do not entirely trust him.
@ Just Curious:
The deal we had with YWO publishing was entirely satisfactory from a professional standpoint. Many of the problems of the original deal were caused by lack of know-how on the part of the authors involved. Had everyone submitted a properly formatted package, many more projects would have been delivered on time. Let’s face it, 90% of self-published books look terrible and that includes those writers who have used a template for their covers.
I don’t know anything about the AbsoluteWrite affair so can’t comment.
Fair enough, Sue, but none of that covers the issue of what will happen to people’s rights/royalties etc now. This is what is of concern, not the quality of service provided in the past.
@ Just Curious:
I would imagine there are legal requirements to be fulfilled and I have no reason to suspect they won’t be. We’ll have to see, won’t we?
Susan Howe wrote:
That’s helpful but it doesn’t actually do what you’re meant to do, which is provide a link to the original comment, and then only quote part of the comment here. If you quote someone in full, or if you quote without providing a link back to your source, you’re infringing on the original person’s copyright, which I neither encourage nor endorse.
I don’t pretend to understand the legal implications, I’m simply repeating what I’ve been told.
Ah, that explains a lot.
I’ll see if I can find the time to write something about all the problems this might cause, and how it could affect the writers concerned. Because if you don’t know how this is meant to work, you’ve not had all of this explained to you, and your contracts either don’t make it clear or don’t contain the information you need, then you (and by “you” I mean “everyone published by YWO”) and your books could well be in trouble.
Cheapest isn’t always best. And YWO doesn’t give you distribution in the publishing sense: it just lists your books as available with various online retailers, which is another thing entirely.
No it doesn’t. It’s completely free to put your book up on Lulu or CreateSpace. With their services you only pay for the books you buy, and you can buy them at cost if you want to. You don’t have to pay any upfront fee at all. If you only want a few books for your friends, you don’t need an ISBN so there’s no point in paying for one.
You’re right, it is happening, and far too often. Any writer who pays someone to publish their book is vanity published–just as you are, with YWO. The size of the fee is different, I’ll agree, but there’s still a fee to be paid, and there’s no screening of the manuscripts submitted: whether the books are published or not depends on whether or not their authors are willing to pay the fee.
I’ve got about 15 YWO books on my shelves which are almost unreadable, they’re so badly written. And yet they’ve been published. YWO accepted fees from their authors in order to publish them: you might think that’s perfectly fine, but I think that’s unscrupulous.
I don’t see how you reach this conclusion. Perhaps you could explain?
I don’t understand why anyone would want to intentionally limit the success that their book could enjoy by publishing with YWO instead of trying to get a deal with a good trade publisher, or by self-publishing it properly (which I think would give it a much better chance of success).
Being published by a trade publisher is not a case of wanting to work on a grand scale: it’s more a case of wanting all the support that you can get when getting your book to market. I’ve been an editor and I know how much work goes into all those trade-published books: why would anyone prefer to publish with a publishing house which doesn’t offer even the most basic editing services, and can’t get full distribution for the books it publishes?
@ Jane Smith:
With YWO, you get more than you pay for …
As a graphic designer I know that the set-up costs alone would be over £60. The fact that an ISBN and organised ‘listing’ on Amazon etc are included means value for money. Then you simply pay per book, which makes sense to me if it’s just for family and friends.
Just to be clear – I wouldn’t self-publish a novel. I would want the endorsement of a professional publisher and editor. My reasons for self-publishing a joint anthology are on my blog.
ooh, two of my favourite youwriteonners!
“The fact that an ISBN and organised ‘listing’ on Amazon etc are included means value for money”
The problem with having the ISBN “thrown in” or added cheaply is, as Jane says, that you relinquish control. You are not the publisher of record. That would seriously bother me. If people are happy with it, though, you can get an ISBN on tehse terms from Lulu much cheaper I believe.
In terms of successes, bte, I believe Louise Wise (LoopyLou) has done rather well with A Proper Charlie – when I get home I’ll drop her a line and ask her about figures etc
@ Dan Holloway:
Hi Dan. As the copyright for our book remains with the writer(s), I can’t see it matters much who publishes it, as long as it is value for money. They can’t do anything else with the material without our agreement. When I looked into Lulu, their set-up costs seemed much more than £60.
Dan, I’ve edited some rogue information out of your comment–I hope you don’t mind. It wasn’t anything you’d written, just some stuff that sneaks in each time you copy and paste from my blog.
Susan Howe wrote:
Thing is, most of the YWO books I’ve seen haven’t been set up in any professional way: they’re just text-dumps. Whatever the writer submits gets stuffed into the template. There’s no typesetting or design to speak of; there’s no set-up from a professional designer’s point of view.
But if you just want to sell a few copies to your family and friends, why do you need that ISBN? Why do you need the book listed on Amazon? Why not just put the book on Lulu or CreatSpace for free, then pay for the books you want? It works out cheaper per copy, too.
As for £60 being value for money for one ISBN and an Amazon listing: you can buy a block of ten ISBNs for yourself for around £120, and then list the books on Amazon yourself. Ten for the price of two. That looks like much better value for money to me. And if a group of ten writers club together to buy one block of ISBNs then the cost can be spread more thinly.
Publishing with YWO is not self-publishing, it’s vanity publishing. But good luck with your anthology: I hope it sells well.
Susan Howe wrote:
I’ve used Lulu to print up several books over the years. I’ve only ever paid for the copies that I’ve bought: I’ve never had to pay any set-up fees whatsoever. Lulu does offer various publishing packages at various costs, but as far as I know there’s still a free option where you only pay for the books you buy. And if Lulu isn’t to your liking what about CreateSpace? That’s free too.
@ Jane Smith:
The set-up costs I referred to are actually the costs to get the document up and running. Many, many submissions will have gone backwards and forwards until they fit the basic print requirements, and all this time has to be paid for. I doubt Lulu stipulate any design requirements either – it is purely down to the writers how gorgeous they want their baby to look. Design standards are lamentably low and most vanity or self-published books scream ‘homemade’.
Susan, you know we had that little side-discussion about citing quotes properly? Here’s how you do it.
This morning, Sue wrote this on the YWO message board. This link won’t take you direct to her comment but it’s the first post on this page, so you won’t have to look hard for it.
Sue, I thought you were better than that.
I’m strongly tempted to block you from my website–it’s easily done–but I don’t think that would help at all, and to be honest I prefer to be able to talk things through with people instead of just shutting them up. If you want to continue to comment here, though, you might want to at least explain your comment here, link to my apparently bitchy blog posts, and tell me exactly what you consider is bitchy about them so that I can at least defend myself against your libellous comments about me.
See? You provide a small quote, link to it or if it’s not online tell your readers where the quote comes from, and then discuss the quote. Simple.
@ Jane Smith:
This is the thread from which I quoted: http://www.youwriteon.com/forum/Whats-Going-On-Topic-29736-1.aspx
As far as the bitchy comment is concerned, members of other sites have discussed comments from your blog from time to time and once there was some debate about whether you were another Jane Smith, which seemed unlikely. However, I would have to trawl back through all your blogsto pinpoint which ones. Isn’t it enough to know your posts are being read and discussed?
@Jane – yes, Lulu still has the free option with no ISBN, which is what I use. I believe they will also give you an ISBN without buying one of their packages but I would rather not have someone else as publisher of record – probably just me being pernickety.
@Sue, Jo Carroll has recently used Createspace and has been using Cath Ryan Howard’s guide to formatting and setting up there which she says is excellent, so there shouldn’t be too much back and forward. I have had a fair bit of angst at Lulu over formatting but 5 books in I’m now very happy with what I can do through them, just using Word, cleaned up so that I know it converts well to their pdfs. I would be more than happy to send my templates to anyone
I’ve just updated my orignal post. I’ve added a list of questions and conflicts which might well affect any writers published by YouWriteOn, and asked how royalties due under the YouWriteOn imprint will be paid now that YouWriteOn has been dissolved. If you’re published by YouWriteOn you would be well advised to seek answers from your publisher as soon as possible.
Susan Howe wrote:
So you wrote that I have “a history of bitchy blogs” because there was some discussion about my name. Susan, I think you need to work on your logic a little.
If you’re going to make a libellous claim about me then you should be prepared to back it up. So yes: I think you should provide links to those posts–but I bet you don’t. And please don’t try to cloud the issue by implying that I should be pleased that my blog is being discussed: that has nothing to do with your assertion that I have “a history of bitchy blogs”.
Susan Howe wrote:
It’s not usual for books to be sent backwards and forwards from publisher to printer “many, many times”: once or twice, perhaps. But much more than that and I’d have to question the professionalism of the publishers’ production and design staff.
As far as YouWriteOn goes it doesn’t carry out any typesetting or design of the books it publishes: it simply bungs the files that its writers provide into the Lightning Source template and ignores any ugly layouts which might arise. I’ve seen some of the results: there’s been no back-and-forth on those books.
I’ll agree with you there. It’s very sad.
@ Jane Smith:
There are no ‘design staff’ and this is clear from the beginning – the author is completely responsible for how the book looks, including any spelling mistakes and wonky formatting. I do know of several instances of people so repeatedly unable to meet the formatting requirements that they had to seek outside help. In my opinion, outside help should have been sought from the second they decided to publish, in terms of editing and design, but that’s a matter of personal standards. Once the floodgates opened there was no apparent room for manoeuvre. I said at the outset I thought it ill-conceived and executed, so no argument from me on that score. Now, however, the process is smooth and quick, providing the ms is submitted correctly. The quality exceeded my expectations – and I’m a professional designer.
One has to assume that the terms and conditions are acceptable to the writer when he/she chooses to make a publishing deal. Many will not have any idea about the alternatives available – they simply want to see their novel printed. The low returns aren’t their primary concern and, sadly, many writers still believe it will lead them to a publishing deal with a mainstream outfit and, as we know, the opposite is more likely to be the case. But each person must take responsibility and live with the consequences.
The issue of the limited company being dissolved is of interest, of course, but until we have been informed about what the implications are, we must assume it will be legal and not detrimental to the YWO members’ interests. I have no reason to believe there is a sinister motive behind this and will have to withhold my judgment until the process is complete.
@ Jane Smith:
I will admit to going off half-cocked yesterday when I read your latest post about YWO and the implication that members necessarily will lose out as a result. We don’t know that. Mistakes have been made but I believe inexperience rather than deceit is behind them.
I have followed your blog on and off for some time and it has seemed to me that YWO has come in for more criticism than it deserves. Many of us would not have enjoyed the (modest) amount of success we have if not for YWO. I apologise if I overstated your intentions in this regard.
I really haven’t got time to read back through all your posts, not just those pertaining to YWO, but what would be the point? Blogs can be edited at any time – not that I’m suggesting you have done that, of course! However, it does render them unreliable witnesses.
Perhaps, if you accept my apology, we can move on?
Susan Howe wrote:
Yes, I know: that was my point. You suggested otherwise, though, when you wrote,
Susan Howe wrote:
I dispute this assertion of yours:
.
Many of the writers who signed up with YouWriteOn didn’t fully understand the implications of the contract or the publishing scheme. And YouWriteOn didn’t help clarify things for them.
It would have been helpful if YouWriteOn had informed its writers that it was taking this step, though, don’t you think? And while I don’t necessarily think that these things were done with evil in mind the confusion and lack of transparency with which rights were transferred to FeadARead and YouWriteOn was dissolved do seem to be typical of how the people behind YouWriteOn conduct their businesses. Which isn’t good for anyone else involved in the business, writers included: because it implies that there will be confusion and a lack of transparency in other aspects of the business too—such as accounting, royalty payments, and sales records. Not that I’m accusing YouWriteOn or anyone else of swindling anyone, you understand. But I am concerned about how the handover will be administered, and how anyone is going to be able to be certain that it’s been carried out accurately and promptly.
Susan Howe wrote:
I didn’t think you would.
It’s all very easy to say something like that, but backing it up takes effort, doesn’t it? I try to own my words, and to not make unfounded accusations based on gossip and prejudice. You might want to consider doing the same. Meanwhile, your apology is noted. If you’re sincere you’ll also apologise in the thread on the YWO message board where you made your “bitchy” remark. I’ll look forward to seeing it there. And now let’s move on.
Having read through all this – and fascinating it is too – what amazes me is the contrast between reasoned, respectful discussion and those whose feelings are so enmeshed in all this that they need to throw vitriol.
I never wrote with YWO, but pottered around its edges occasionally. And so I have no axe to grind here. But surely those who are enjoying the benefits of YWO should engage with the legal and ethical issues raised here – they are, after all, deeply involved in what happens next and surely wish to protect themselves and their writing.
And it affects all of us. If self-publishers are to take themselves seriously, then we need to ensure that our work is the best it can possibly be. And that it comes with the correct legal protections in terms of contracts, ISBNs, etc. We cannot simply shrug our shoulders at one organisation who may not have considered all the ramifications of changes they wish to make. We should see ourselves as professionals and expect professional standards from others – or we will all find ourselves tarred with the fall-out if those standards slip.
Is a thoughtful discussion too much to hope for? Or should I keep my head down and expected metaphorical doo-doo to be thrown in my direction too.
@ Jane Smith:
The ‘set-up’ costs I referred to are nothing to do with the appearance of the project – they are costs incurred to get something printable (however bad it looks) onto the machine! At all times YWO have stipulated that correct formatting is necessary for the printer to ‘recognise’ it. This is entirely the writer’s responsibility and it isn’t fair or reasonable to blame YWO for poor editorial content, ugly formatting or badly designed covers. When your manuscript is formatted suitably for printing, it will be printed. That is, and always was, the deal. If writers accept and pay for something they are not satisfied with, such as a green line running through the cover, that’s their lookout, as with any service. They are not children and they must wise up. They have not been exploited and if their book looks homemade it’s because that’s how they presented it. They can’t expect magic for £60.
I will apologise the YWO message board and I will read your future posts with interest.
Susan Howe wrote:
As I understand it, YWO’s books are printed by Lightning Source, via their digital presses. The last time I worked with Lightning Source there was no setup cost involved for POD: setup costs were only incurred when using the offset machines. So, as I’ve said before, there shouldn’t be any setup costs involved in this operation. I might be wrong, of course: things might have changed since I last worked with LS. If I am I hope someone will let me know.
At all times YWO have stipulated that correct formatting is necessary for the printer to ‘recognise’ it. This is entirely the writer’s responsibility and it isn’t fair or reasonable to blame YWO for poor editorial content, ugly formatting or badly designed covers.
When YWO has provided a badly-designed template cover, though, then YWO is to blame for that. The early editions it published had awful covers. And when YWO introduces formatting errors into the book then again, YWO is to blame.
A friend of mine published her first book through YWO. She ordered a single copy and that arrived with a perfect cover; so she ordered a bigger quantity and they all arrived with, coincidentally, a green line running across the cover (I wonder why you came up with that example?). YWO refused to replace the books and insisted that the file she’d sent them must have had the stripe in place, despite her having received a good copy initially.
That would be appreciated. Thank you.
@ Jo Carroll:
Jo, there’s always a bit of a hoo-hah when I blog about something like this: writers, especially new writers or those who have had trouble finding a publisher willing to take them on, often don’t want to hear that they’ve signed up to a dodgy outfit or a vanity publisher. They’d rather accuse me of being mean than consider that they’ve been had. It’s all very sad, of course: but I can understand it. We were all young and hopeful once. Even me!
But you’re right to raise this point. What some writers see as support for someone who has published them–no matter how badly–others are going to see as unnecessary carping. And nasty carping, I’m afraid, is how a lot of publishing professionals see many of the responses that YWO writers have made to both this blog post and my earlier ones regarding YWO. For example, see this tweet that was left for me by the owner of Edinburgh’s most acclaimed independent bookshop. You can guarantee that the next time a YWO-published author tries to persuade her to stock their books she’ll remember this blog post. And she’s not alone: other publishing professionals have commented to me about it too, and not in a positive way.
Mind you, if you think this thread is bad just wait til you see the reaction to another blog post I’ve been researching. It’s not going to go down well with people, I bet. I am bracing myself even now.
@ Jane Smith:
Just a couple of points. The author receives a pdf ‘proof’ to check before their book goes to print. If something is amiss at that stage, the onus is on the writer to point it out. Proof reading isn’t part of the deal for obvious reasons. Once the pdfs have been approved, nothing on the page moves. It’s why printers work mainly from pdfs these days – the errors are the client’s and must be paid for.
The awful cover templates were chosen by the writers from a selection of templates. They were at liberty to do their own or commission one at their expense but I assume they didn’t see the point. I bang on about this all the time and have voiced my frustration over and over again. I can do no more.
I am not ‘carping’ because I think I’ve been ‘had’. I got a good deal for my purposes and, as I had never submitted to a mainstream publisher, you can’t accuse me of failing to find one. In fact, many of the stories in our anthology have been published in the traditional way. As I said, my reasons for going through with our project are on my blog, the main one being I had to draw a line under a body of work to force myself to move on. Whether anyone else thinks that’s a good reason is irrelevant.
Lastly, the green stripe featured in one of your earlier blogs. Your friend should have photographed the good and bad covers and sent them to YWO or taken legal advice.
I’m feeling saddened by what’s going on with YWO as I’ve always been, possibly blindly, supportive of Ted. What will happen to our next lot of royalties for starters and I’m also worried about my rights. I’ve read Jane’s update and a lot of the questions I wanted to ask her, she’s covered. I’ve emailed her privately on another matter. I so agree that as authors with YWO, we should have been approached about our books and asked if we would object to them being part of FAR. Only one of mine is YWO published and that contract is due for renewal. A further distribution payment is due this month. I haven’t paid it. I think I’ll call it quits for now and see what happens before I commit myself to anything further. I’m going to copy and paste my last comment from the MB on YWO as I have to go out in a minute, and it’ll save me a bit of time, but it says what I would have said here. I’d appreciate feedback etc. What I’m wondering is, was the initial debacle all Ted’s fault and what part did New Generation have to play in it, as they certainly messed things up for me when I was passed over to them.
Quoted from my message
“Thanks, Dan for stepping in. Jane’s update on her blog has answered a lot of the questions I was going to ask her. I’m still in a quandary about my rights to my own work. I missed the earlier publishing problems and in 2009 when I was ready to publish Three Steps To Heaven I sent it to Ted but was then transferred to New Generation for publishing when Ted and they parted company after the joint venture. I have had no end of problems with them, as sulcus will tell you. They lost two copies of my MS, God knows how as it all was done on line! It took from April until November to get my mitts on the first copy! I’m still owed money and have cancelled with them and was hoping to transfer Steps to FAR next year as a second edition. When I published Til I Kissed You with YWO it was a breath of fresh air. All done so quickly and efficiently. I was holding the first copy in a few short weeks. I used my own cover designer and made absolutely sure I’d done all I could with employing an editor, proofreading and setting them out in the correct format etc before I sent either of them off to be published. I would only have me to blame then if they came out all messed up. Thankfully they didn’t.”
Pam, if you’re happy with the service that YWO has given you, and you’re happy with the limitations that publishing with YWO puts on your work, then I see no problems with you continuing to work with them and/or FAR.
However, as you can self-publish all of your books for free, and retain full control of all aspects of your work while doing so, you might like to consider that instead. Have a look at Lulu.com and Amazon’s CreateSpace, and see what you think. You can use Lulu’s ISBNs if you want to, or buy your own, which would give you more flexibility if you wanted to move services, for example–you wouldn’t be able to take Lulu’s ISBN and use it on Createspace or anywhere else. The last time I looked you could buy a block of ten ISBNs for around £120–which is about the same cost as signing two books up to YWO.
Hi Pam,
You said “A further distribution payment is due this month. I haven’t paid it.”
What distribution do YWO charge you for? If I search for any of the books on our wholesaler’s database, they show up as POD, which means that until I order one they’re just stored as computer files by whoever the printer is. Then I wait an estimated (according to wholesaler) 12 days for it to be delivered. So what are they actually charging you for? And, out of interest, how much do they charge?
I’m not being critical or argumentative but I’m genuinely interested. As a bookseller I deal with an every increasing number of vanity/self-published authors and it worries me how little many of them know of the trade.
Incidentally, the YWO books are supplied on a firm sale basis which means that – unliked conventionally published titles they cannot be returned if they can’t sell. Also, the terms offered to me are considerable lower than almost all other books. The combination of this means that I can almost guarantee that I would only stock them in response to customer orders and never as part of my general stock. For those who just want a memento of their work for family and friends that’s fine, but for anyone writer who wants to build a career it’s a massive handicap.
For those of you who don’t know Vanessa, she owns a very well-regarded bookshop, which has a broad and exciting range of books.
Vanessa wrote:
As I understand it, YWO charges an initial fee of £50 or £60, and then an annual fee of £20 in subsequent years to keep the books listed on Amazon (and perhaps elsewhere). The books are also “available from” bookshops such as yours, Vanessa, but that isn’t at all the same as “stocked on the shelves of” bookshops like yours, as we both very well know.
Me too, Vanessa.
Agreed.
Susan Howe wrote:
Susan, I do sort-of know how this works: not only have I worked in publishing for nearly three decades, I’ve been following the YWO story for a few years now.
No they weren’t: they were chosen by YWO.
Listen closely, Susan, for I’ll say this only once: it’s not all about you. I realise you’ll find that difficult to believe but sometimes I comment on my own blog in response to other people who ARE NOT YOU.
She did. YWO wouldn’t budge, and legal proceedings can be very expensive. You really shouldn’t issue judgements about things like this when you don’t know what you’re talking about.
Now. I’d be grateful if you’d allow this thread to turn back into a discussion about YWO, and stop trying to turn it into The Susan Howe Show. There’s a good girl.
@ Susan Howe:
I find it very strange that you should choose to use covers with stripes on them as an example as this is exactly what happened to me. I blogged about it here: http://djkirkby.co.uk/2009/01/stripes-stripes-arrrrggghhhh/ YWO was not interested in sorting the problem out even though I had proof that the original cover I had sent in complied with their instructions and had no stripes on them before I sent them to YWO.
I am fortunate to still have so many supportive readers after the mistake I made by being published (and I use that in the loosest sense of the word) by YWO which led to my readers purchasing the literary equivalent of slightly damaged furniture. I felt so ashamed by the end product of what I had originally intended to be a very special book about growing up with multiple undiagnosed disabilities that I pulled it from publication.
I was not to blame for the shonky covers but YWO was not prepared to do anything to resolve the problem despite my attempts to make that happen. I am now left with a tainted memory of my first publishing experience. And, you would be quite right in thinking that I sound bitter and twisted about it.
@ Jane Smith:
Thanks, Jane, for this. I’m giving serious thought to buying a batch of ISBN’s and I’m going to take a look at Lulu’s process. I’ll have a “chat” with Dan Holloway and see how he’s made it work before I take any further steps.
@Vanessa, hi. Yes the distribution fee is supposedly to ensure the book is still available on Amazon etc. It’s payable annually. The other company I mentioned above wanted £36 for continued distribution for twelve months. As my e-books are selling in decent enough numbers without all this additional cost, I think I may give paperback publishing a miss, other than getting copies for people who have asked for them. If I can do this without relying on anyone other than myself, I may take that option. I kind of like being “in charge” of things and maybe that’s why I chose not to go down the route of finding an agent. I’ve never submitted anything. Perhaps I’m mad and I should have tried, but it’s the time factor and the thousands of other writers all desperately seeking representation that made me decide to go it alone. But I can honestly say that I’ve made a lot more money on the Kindle books than the paperbacks. Even though I’m very happy with the quality, the cost alone is making me think twice now. Thanks to everyone for all the very helpful comments and giving me much food for thought. Pam.
@Pam – £36 is very high for simply keeping a file on a computer and for paying Neilsen. I can’t remember what their charges are but I *think* it’s in the region of a fiver per year per title for the more detailed service. You can keep very basic bibliographic info – although with a short blurb and a jacket image included – on there for free.
If you’re self-publishing your e-books and that’s going well, then I would do as you’re thinking and buy some ISBNs, using Lulu or similar to POD the copies you need – you could also keep a small stack in case bookshops want to order one in.
As you know, you have to do your own design, formatting, sales and marketing but frankly, you still have to do all of that when using the YWO service. You’re gaining control and saving money. If you want to go the self-publishing route instead of convenitional publishing then I think it’s a better bet.
Good luck.
@ Vanessa:
@ Vanessa, thank you. I’ve done all that you mentioned already for the first publishing round and everything’s re-edited and ready and waiting in my files. I love marketing and have found my niche with the lovers of rock’n'roll sagas. I feel quite excited at taking charge. I’ve learned more this weekend on here than in over two years. I feel quite empowered. Thanks.
Pam Howes wrote:
I’m lucky that so many knowledgeable, witty people bother to comment on my posts: it makes such a difference. And I’m so glad you’ve found this a useful place to be, Pam.
If you’re considering self-publishing your work you might find the forums at AbsoluteWrite helpful: there’s a whole section there dedicated to self-publishing, in which people discuss what’s worked for them. My user-name at AW is Old Hack: if you join up I hope you’ll say hello.
And good luck with your books. It’s hard work however you decide to publish them, but I have every confidence you’ll put the hours in.
I’ve just tried to read the YWO piece that Jane linked to and the link won’t work for me. I get a Runtime Error every time. Can anyone else access it? Is it my computer causing problems again? Or is the YWO board being edited yet again? We’ll know soon enough if the thread disappears or is suddenly a lot shorter. It had nearly four full pages when I looked at it earlier.
I don’t think you’re being paranoid, Paranoid (sorry, I couldn’t resist).
I can’t get the link to work either (I assume you mean the one I provided to the discussion about this blog post). How peculiar. It doesn’t necessarily mean that the discussion over there is being edited, though: it could be a technical glitch on the server, or perhaps some other administration is going on.
@ Paranoid Or Realistic?:
There is a problem getting into the site for some reason. Before it went down I tried to add a reply for Dan Holloway but the thread appears to have vanished! I was searching all the current threads, thinking I was going senile, when the whole thing vanished. I await with bated breath to find out what’s happening. @Dan, if you see this, I’d love to get a template from you. My e-mail address is on my page on YWO, but that’s not much use at the moment. I’m not too sure that I’m allowed to put it on here.
@Jane, thank you, I’ll look at Absolute Write later. Pam.
@ Jane Smith:
PS: It’s back up and the thread is still there. Now I know I’m going senile! I couldn’t see it before. I’ll swear it had vanished.
Dear Jane.
I’m coming to the end of my 68th year, I’ve been writing (rubbish) for the past ten years, mainly to pass the time. I suffer (mildly) from dyslexia (PTSD)
and have taught myself to draw and paint.
In these ten years I have tried unsuccessfully to find an agent /publisher.
Apart from learining how to write better (in my opinion)as I was terrible at the start, name a mistake and I did it. The other thing I learnt about writing is, apart from not having to get it right first time that one should never, ever pay anybody anything to have ones book published, and that goes for distribution too, and (in my opinion) proofread and edited too, as that is part of writing.
I love to write and shall continue to do so as long as I’m allowed.
I still have the occassional typo though and I would be lost without my spell checker, which I can’t use here, writing live.
I you wish for a samople of my writing, my e-books are available (look inside) on amazon T. S. Vandelocht.
So,I sent an anthology (for a laugh) to feedaread and I was in the process of making a few changes (not editing) when they told me my book would be published. Here are the details and the bumf from FAR, which are probably aware of, but I’m sending it for other bloggers reference.Delete it if you wish.
Question: Must feedaread have a signed agreement from me before they can print this and any following book?
Here we go:
This available on the template.
Copyright © 2011 T. J. Edison.
Published in 2012 by FeedARead.com Publishing,
Arts Council funded.
Cover design by T. J. Edison and http://www.myecovermaker.com
The author or authors assert their moral right under the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act, 1988, to be identified as the author or authors of this work.
All Rights reserved. No part of this publication may be reproduced, copied, stored in a retrieval system, or transmitted, in any form or by any means (electronic, mechanical, photocopying, recording, or otherwise) without the prior written consent of both the copyright holder, and the above publisher of this book, nor be otherwise circulated in any form of binding or cover other than that in which it is published and without a similar condition being imposed on the subsequent purchaser.
A CIP catalogue record for this title is available from the British Library.
Publishing Status
This is what they told me:
Your book has successfully been PUBLISHED (as of 23 January 2012). You can now click here to order copies to check. Once you have checked your book you can make your book available to order on site by clicking the appropriate option below..
NO, I don’t want anyone to purchase this book yet
Bookseller Distribution Service: You can distribute your book once you have checked your printed book copies and are ready for your book to be ordered at major booksellers including Amazon.
Book Title: Awesome prefabrications
Author: T S Vandelocht
ISBN: 9781908895059
Category: FICTION / Fantasy / Epic
Copyright: 2011
Language: English
Country: United Kingdom
Edition: 1
Book Size: 5 inches wide x 8 inches high
Binding Type: Perfect Bound, Bookstore Quality
Ink Colour: Black and White printing for Interior (with full colour covers)
Status: PDF Print Ready Document Approved
Total Pages: 214
Status: Print Ready Cover Approved
FeedaRead Price: €7.95
Distribution Price: €8.99
Availability: Available to order through book sellers such as Amazon and through FeedaRead.com
This is what the tell potential authors:
Frequently Asked Questions
FeedARead established with Arts Council funding is free for all nationalities to publish as bookstore quality paperbacks with free feedback every 3 months for our highest selling authors from the publishers of some of the world’s bestselling authors, including the publishers of Dan Brown, Terry Pratchett and Stephen King. FeedARead.com was established with Arts Council England funding, who fund prestigious arts organisations such as The Royal Opera House and the Royal Shakespeare Company.
It is free to setup your book for sale as a bookstore quality paperback through FeedARead.com with higher royalties than the largest publishers in the industry. We also provide a full book distribution service so that your book is available to order via all major online outlets and for bookshops to order, see our full book distribution prices for your nationality below. The site takes you through the easy steps to publish when you click the Begin Publishing button on the left menu.
Displayed below are frequently asked questions on publishing your book with FeedARead.
What types of book do you publish?
We publish all types of books including fiction, non-fiction and poetry.
How do I prepare and submit my book for publishing?
To prepare and submit your book, click on the Begin Publishing button on the left hand menu. This takes you through the simple steps to prepare and publish your book including submitting your manuscript according to our submission requirements, and choosing from one of our stylish covers or uploading your own cover images. You set your book price and also your royalty amount before you publish. Our royalties are higher than the norm of the largest publishers. You also see and approve your manuscript and cover online before you publish to ensure you are completely satisfied with how your book will appear. Books are published as bookstore quality paperbacks at 5 inches wide x 8 inches high. Click here to see feedback from our authors about the quality of FeedARead books and our publishing service.
How does FeedARead work?
FeadARead was established with Arts Council funding to enable authors of all nationalities to publish worldwide as bookstore quality paperbacks with high author royalties. We also provide feedback for our bestselling authors from publishers of some of the world’s bestselling authors, including Dan Brown and Terry Pratchett. We prepare your book digitally, and then when anyone orders a copy it is printed as a bookstore quality paperback and delivered to the reader.
Which publishers are involved on FeedARead?
Random House and Orion, publishers of many of the world’s bestselling authors including Dan Brown, John Grisham and Terry Pratchett, provide feedback every 3 months on the top ten highest selling FeedARead authors’ opening chapters. The aim is to help talented new writers develop and provide them with opportunities to have their work read by leading publishers.
Where will my book be available to buy, is it free to sell my book?
You can choose to make your book available to buy as a bookstore quality paperback directly from the FeedARead site, and it is free to do this and set-up your book to sell directly to readers through FeedARead. You also set the royalty you will receive for each book sale you make before you publish. Readers buy through our site, and our printers, who print hundreds of thousands of books per year, directly ship customers their books. Click Begin Publishing on the left hand menu to start.
Once published, you can also sell your book through our Book Distribution Service which makes your book available via all major online outlets and for readers to order through the ordering services of major bookshops after published. This includes booksellers such as Amazon, Waterstone’s and Barnes and Noble, and ensures your book is internationally available to order by book buyers in the US, UK, Europe, Canada and Australia and worldwide. Our printers are one of the world’s largest printers, printing hundreds of thousands of books annually as above.
There is a fee for the Distribution Service as listed below, only one fee is payable to make your book available for sale internationally, these are the fees depending on your nationality:
UK Authors: £88
US Authors: $140
Australian Authors: $140
European Authors: E100
All other authors: £88 UK Sterling
If you choose to use the Book Distribution Service to make your book available for sale through booksellers, first set-up your book for publishing for free through FeedARead by clicking the Begin Publishing button on the left hand menu. The site will take you through the simple steps to publish. Once published you then simply click a button on your Author Account page on FeedARead to sell your book through the Distribution Service. This makes your book available via the major online outlets, and for readers to order via the ordering services of major bookshops after published. If a bookstore is interested in stocking your book, they can also order your book via the major book wholesalers to achieve this.
Will I receive a Publishing Agreement?
Yes, before you publish you will receive an agreement which is displayed during the publishing steps. You can begin the publishing process by clicking on the Begin Publishing button above. You retain all copyright and rights and control over your work.
What happens if my book does not meet submission requirements?
The book submission requirements, which you will view when you click to begin publishing, are designed to be straightforward and required by the printers for book publishing. These include how to prepare your manuscript file. If you do not meet these requirements then you will be provided with reasons why and given the opportunity to resubmit your book.
Do I retain copyright and control over my work?
Yes, the author retains copyright at all times and should you wish to cancel publication, for example, so your book may be published elsewhere, you can do this by a simple notice button on your FeedARead Author Account page. We will inform our printers who will in turn inform the book chain that the book you have cancelled is no longer available to order from our printers. You retain all rights and control over your book.
What royalties will I receive?
You set your own book price and the royalty that you will receive for each book sale before you publish during our simple publishing steps. The FeedARead publishing system, funded by the Arts Council who are one of the major funders of the Arts including The Royal Opera House and the Royal Shakespeare Company, enables authors of all nationalities to receive considerably higher royalties for each book sale than the standard for author royalties. Examples are below. Our royalties are higher than the largest print-on-demand (POD) publishers and also higher than the norm for mainstream publishers. Print-on-demand (POD) is the process by which a bookstore quality paperback is printed and delivered each time a reader orders a copy.
Book Distribution Channel Sales For sales of your book through bookseller distribution channels, the author will receive 80% of royalties after the retailer – Amazon etc – take their bookseller discount, which is typically 30 to 55% of retail price, and after print costs have been deducted.
UK Royalty Example. Example royalties for a £7.99 book in bookseller distribution. You can set your book price and royalties higher if you wish when you publish and see the exact royalty according to your book size.
Book Price £7.99 minus bookseller discount minus print cost = £1.80 net profit.
80% of £1.80 = £1.44 royalty to the author per book sale. FeedARead receives the remaining 20%.
United States Royalty Example Example royalties for a $12.94 book in bookseller distribution. You can set your book price and royalties higher if you wish when you publish and see the exact royalty according to your book size.
Book Price $12.94 minus bookseller discount minus print cost = $3.31
80% of $3.31= $2.65 to the author per book sale. FeedARead receives the remaining 20% of the $3.31.
Euro Royalty Example Example royalties for a 9.04 Euros book in bookseller distribution. You can set your book price and royalties higher if you wish when you publish and see the exact royalty according to your book size.
Book Price 9.04 Euros minus bookseller discount minus print cost = 2.04 Euros
80% of $2.04 = $1.63 to the author per book sale. FeedARead receives the remaining 20% of the $2.04.
These royalties ensure that you, the author, receive the majority of royalty profit from sales of your book.
FeedARead Direct Site Sales For sales of your books bought directly by a reader from FeedARead.com, the author will receive even higher royalties as there is no percentage of the retail price to pay to book retailers (Amazon, etc) on these sales.
Example royalties for a book priced at £7.99 book Click here to view an online currency converter in your currency:
Direct Site Sales UK Royalty Example 200 page book priced at £7.99 For a 200 page book the author receives £3.27 royalty for every book they sell.
Direct Site Sales US Royalty Example 200 page book priced at $12.65 For a 200 page book the author receives $5.44 for every book they sell.
Direct Site Sales US Royalty Example 200 page book priced at 9.04 Euros For a 200 page book the author receives £2.92 Euros for every book they sell.
These royalties ensure that you, the author, receive the majority of royalty profit from sales of your book.
When and how are royalties paid
Royalty statements are available to view on each author’s private royalty account page – accessible by logging on to FeedARead and clicking on your Author Account page – and paid during April and October each year. Royalties are paid to you online.
Will I see proofs of my book before publication?
Yes, FeedARead will enable you to view your print-ready manuscript and cover online before you choose to publish so you can see how your book will appear before publishing. Once the printers have prepared your book, usually 7 to 14 days after you submit it, you can then order a bookstore quality paperback copy to check. This will be at an author discount price, below the retail price of your book which you set when you go through the publishing steps. If you should wish to revise your book further upon receiving your book, you can do so by emailing FeedARead, and we will inform you how to revise. Once you are happy with your printed book, you then can make your book available to order through FeedARead and through booksellers from your Author Account page on FeedARead.com. Simply login to FeedARead to access this page. It then takes booksellers usually 3 to 6 weeks to display your book, and for your book to be available to order through the ordering services of major booksellers.
Can I choose to make my book just available to order by me?
You can choose to make your book available to order just by you if you wish to when you set up your book for publishing. You can make your book more widely available for sale later if you choose, including through FeedARead.com and through the Book Distribution Service as outlined above.
Where will my book be available to order through the Bookseller Distribution Service?
If you choose to make your book available to order through booksellers your book will be automatically entered into bookseller distribution feeds by our printers. Our printers are one of the world’s largest printers, printing hundreds of thousands of books annually, they ensure books are available to order as far as possible through the ordering services of major booksellers and retailers, including booksellers such as Amazon, Barnes and Noble and most other major bookseller outlets. Once your book has been published, you can sign up for the Book Distribution Service through your Author Account page. It then takes approximately 3 to 6 weeks for the full details of your book to appear via the major online retailers.
Our printers have the largest global distribution network of their kind with over 30,000 wholesalers, retailers and booksellers in over 100 countries so that your book will gain the maximum exposure in the market today. A bookstore quality paperback copy of your book is printed each time a book is ordered by a reader anywhere in the world.
How do bookshops order copies of my book?
If you have entered your book for bookseller distribution, booksellers can order through the largest bookseller wholesalers in the US – Ingrams and Barnes and Noble – as per booksellers normal practices for ordering. In the UK, the books are also available to order by bookshops via the UK’s major wholesalers, Gardners, Nielsen and Bertrams. As part of this process, a customer who needs to check on an order made through a bookstore should first contact the bookstore so they can contact the wholesaler from whom they order their book stock. This is because bookstore orders are fulfilled directly between our printers to wholesalers, and FeedARead is not involved in this part of the ordering process for books in distribution. If you are ordering a book through a bookseller, given them the book title and the book ISBN, which is the 13 digit number on the back of the book.
How does sales and marketing work for my book?
FeedARead provides free publishing set-up to enable authors to sell their books with selling and promotion of the book as the author’s responsibility. We assist authors in this through providing the means for their books to reach a worldwide audience through their book being available to buy on FeedARead.com, and for readers to order through the ordering services of the major booksellers if authors choose to use our Book Distribution Service. We also enable feedback for our highest selling authors every 3 months from editors for Random House and Orion, who publish some of the world’s bestselling authors including Dan Brown and Terry Pratchett. We advise looking at every avenue possible to promote your book. For example, such as through your local media, book signings with local bookstores, and networking.
Who decides the price of my book and can I change it after I have published?
Our system recommends the best price for authors individual books when you set your book price during the book publishing steps. You can decide whether to sell at this price or set your own preferred book price. If you wish to change your book price later you can do so by submitting a revision of your book by contacting us through your Author Account page. Login to FeedARead to go to your Author Account page.
Can I order author discount copies?
Once you have successfully published your book we inform you and you can order author discounted copies from your Author Account page by clicking on your book title. You will see your author discount price during the publishing steps before you publish. Click the Begin Publishing button above to begin the publishing process. The delivery times for your book will also be displayed to you when you order your published book depending on the delivery destination.
Are there extra discounts for bulk orders?
Yes. Once your book is published click to order on your Author Account page, and when you enter the quantity we will provide you with the extra discount for bulk orders depending on the amount of books ordered. Bulk order discounts range between 5 to 20% and they can be considerably higher for large orders. Orders typically take 5 to 12 working days to manufacture and deliver via FeedARead, or the delivery period as listed on the delivery page for overseas deliveries. Our printers have publishing bases in the US, UK and Australia to enable economic and timely delivery.
Can customers order copies direct from FeedARead?
Yes, FeedARead enables readers to order copies direct from FeedARead.com in many currencies, including US dollars, UK sterling, Euros, and Australian dollars. Royalties for direct site sales through FeedARead are considerably higher than through booksellers as there is no percentage that goes to booksellers in return for selling the book, which is known as a bookseller discount. This means the author receives even higher royalties for sales of books sold through FeedARead.com as listed in the royalties information above. The author will view the royalties they will receive for direct site sales in the publishing steps before publishing. Click the Begin Publishing button above to begin. Our royalties are higher than the two largest print-on-demand (POD) publishers, and are higher than the norm for the largest mainstream publishers. Print-on-demand (POD) is the process by which a bookstore quality paperback is printed each time a reader orders a copy.
Can I complete a revision of my book text and cover?
Yes, authors can complete revisions of their manuscript and cover at any time after publication. Simply email FeedARead through the contact button on your Author Account page with your book title and ‘Revise’ in your email header and we will inform you how to revise your book. Login to FeedARead to access your Author Account page. Revisions usually take 7 to 14 working days for the revisions to be processed once submitted correctly to us, and usually 4 to 6 weeks for the new version of the book to appear at the booksellers that display the book.
We hope these frequently asked questions answer any query you may have. If not, email thet...@feedaread.com with ‘NEW QUESTION’ in the subject line of your email.
What do you think of all that?
Yours sincerely,
William Stephen Taylor (real name)
In addition to the above comment i would like to ad that I sent FAR this e-mail:
Dear feedaread team.
You haven’t asked me for my home address to which you can send my publishing contract for each book that you wish to publish.
And another thing, I see you have decided to “accept” my book “Awesome prefabrications” for publication.
As you well know, I didn’t want this version published at all, therefore you can remove it from the list.
Thank you.
William.
William-Stephen Taylor wrote:
William, I don’t know. I’m not a lawyer, nor have I read all of FAR’s documentation. But from the information you provided, there seems to me to be no submission process after which the books are accepted for publication and then published: it seems that one clicks a big button labelled “begin publishing”, follows the instructions given, and bingo! your book is published. See this:
How far along that route did you go? If you went through the entire process then you’re the one who made your book available, not FAR.
Jane.
I have not “pressed” the publish button, before one does publishes, one must agree to the “conditions”, here is an excerpt:
This part of FAR’s agreement.
12. Copies to the British Library(.)
As part of a legal obligation, the Author agrees to submit one printed copy of their book, at their own cost, to the British Library at the address below. This can be done by ordering a copy through the FeedARead site via the Author’s Account page on site. The Author also agree(s) to supply a single copy to each of the other national libraries and holdings, if formally requested, these are Bodleian Library at the University of Oxford, Cambridge University Library, National Library of Scotland, the Library of Trinity College, Dublin and the National Library of Wales. These libraries are entitled to request a free copy within one year of publication, though this doesn’t occur often for POD.
(I think that is because POD books are known or thought to be of a lessed quality.)
Legal Deposit Office
The British Library
Boston Spa
Wetherby
West Yorkshire
LS23 7BY
Is that normal, is this the case with every publishing house?
I believe it used to be the case until some years ago!!?
What do you think, is this just another scam?
Am I wasting my time with these people?
William.
Sorry about the typos, I was in a hurry.
I have “kicked FAR in the head”, no thanks.
So, what else is new?
Bloody cold here, minus 10° Celcius.
William.
@ Dan Holloway:
Rather than offer conjecture I contacted the Arts Council themselves who assert that neither YWO or NBA have been in receipt of funding since 2008. FeedARead.com (YWO Next Generation)has none either, they all being one privately owned business.
Although this is allegedly dissolved, the website is still current with members being under the impression that it is a bona fide site and they still exchange reviews, although the site is clearly winding down.
The domain is licensed until August/September of this year (2012).
Perry McDaid wrote:
If you search the lists of awards made by Arts Council England, which you can access on the ACE website here, you’ll see that YWO was awarded £16,500 in June 2009.
I’ve not searched for any of the other names involved.
I think that Next Generation is owned by Legend Press, not YWO, but I might be wrong.
The company has been wound down, but the website continues. I wonder what will happen when the domain expires? And where the people behind YWO will move to then?
“Patronising or Insulting”
Here’s an excerpt from a letter from Nick Carter, Arts Council:
“Arts Council England made a grant award to YouWriteOn in 2008 for the research and development of the online publishing service Feed A Read. Arts Council England does not provide on-going funding or support to YouWriteOn and we have asked the site owner to make that clear on their website.”
Use paranoid in conjunction with my name again …
Perry, “Paranoid Or Realistic” has commented here before: that’s his user-name, not a poke at you. Honest. Please don’t be upset by it.
I note that the quote you provided from the letter you received from Arts Council England doesn’t tie in with your earlier assertions.
There you stated that YWO had received no funding since 2008; and that FAR had had none either, as it was a privately-owned business. But the letter you quoted said,
That doesn’t say that “neither YWO or NBA have been in receipt of funding since 2008″, it says that YWO received a grant in 2008″. And as the link which PoR provided shows, YWO had a further grant in 2009.
Nor does the quote suggest that “FeedARead.com … has none either, they all being one privately owned business”; it says that in 2008 YWO was given a grant specifically for FAR.
Okay, now that we all know that FaR is just another effing print-on-demand (loser) publisher, I think it is safe to talk about what WotF is doing for the sci-fi world as far as publishing new authors stories is concerned.
And the very new author support site -:
Is this really an author support site or is it a cover for some seedy ‘take the money and run’ publishing agency or another effing POD publishing and/or editing scam?
@ Jane Smith:
Thank you for clearing that up, Jane. The tag presents itself as a title, not an avatar. Being observant, you will note that that same tag is NOT underlined as are the names of the contributors, and it is followed by a question mark. So it is not unreasonable to identify it as a site-produced header, rather than a contributor identifier.
Jane, I provided as much as an excerpt as was necessary to put to rest contentions as regards dates. The rest of the letter and a casual bit of research on the net support the related assertions. I dropped in here merely to make a few observations, not nail anyone to the wall.
Before I started looking into this, I had published with FAR. The invoices on purchased books are on YWO letter heading. Draw your own conclusions.
I have qualifications in business law, so I know the legal requirement in such cases.
Anyone curious about that has a whole net these days to consult.
I had seen your name savaged on that site and found it distasteful in the extreme.
Finally, I take it WST refers to Writers of the Future ad not Will of the Forsaken. Such is the problem with acronyms.
Oh, and having scanned back over the previous posts, I see where a bit of confusion may have arisen.
I refered to FAR as YWO, Next Generation – an oblique tongue in cheek (sorry, auto-poet on!) homage to Star Trek/Star Trek Next Generation, which seems to have been confused with ?
Sorry for the twitter contraction. Yes, Writers of the Future, where are they going, publishing (edited) short sci-fi stories? Is this really going to boost the flagging sci-fi fantasy genre?
Sorry about the URL, as I wanted everybody’s take on softeampact dot com, so just google it.
I see so many “author help sites” with their hidden pod offers and I would like to know if an author support site like this, run by volunteers, is going to help increase the quality of indie and non-indie publishing (not vanity or pod) on Amazon for example?
Perry McDaid wrote:
Being observant, you’ll notice that happens because PoR doesn’t provide a link to his website when he comments here. The underline is an indication that the text concerned is a link.
Moving on, I’m very uncomfortable with your earlier comment,
It’s subtly threatening, and entirely inappropriate. Please don’t do it again on my blog. Thank you.
You provided enough information to show that your earlier comment was inaccurate. So it’s probably just as well that you’re not hoping to “nail anyone to the wall”, don’t you think?
If you make claims on my blog, please make sure that they’re accurate and that you can verify them. Otherwise you’re not helping, and that would be a shame.
I have no qualifications in business law, but I did pass my Cycling Proficiency Test.
As for what people say about me at YWO: I think it’s more reasonable and more useful to debate points of fact and logic rather than to insult the person who says stuff you don’t like, but perhaps I’m just old-fashioned. In the end such savaging reflects badly on the site as a whole, and on the people who continue to support the site, which is not a good thing. I try not to get involved but I will and do respond here, when I think it necessary.
I have come up with several extremely naughty acronyms which fit WotF but am not yet feeling foolish enough to post them here. Be grateful.
Dear Jane.
Q: What is worse than being ‘talked about’?
(Oscar Wilde)
I have downloaded the advice you have displayed on your site and uploaded it onto ‘the site where I am a moderator’. You are welcome to visit the site when you have the time, and contribute the knowledge you have gathered, but be careful, if you do that (after joining – no fee) I will definitely ask you to be interviewed.
If you decline (please say so) I still wish to interview by e-mail questionnaire.
What is your answer on WotF?
Message: As for YWO and FaR, tut-tut, hey, come on guys, have you people nothing better to do, like writing?
And, as for all you ‘Jane Smith’ supporters, why aren’t you writing?
William-Stephen Taylor wrote:
I hope you’re joking, William. Really. You don’t have my permission to download anything from this site and if you’ve done that, then you’ve violated my copyrights. Please provide me with links to all the places where you’ve done this, so that I can see exactly what you’ve used and how you’ve used it.
This is a big deal. I am not at all happy. You can’t just copy someone’s work and then tell them what you’ve done, and expect that to be ok, and as a writer you really should know better.
A link would be helpful here, don’t you think?
This thread is about YWO, not WotF, and I don’t have the time to research WotF in the ways I’d have to in order to answer your questions properly.
I suggest you join AbsoluteWrite and ask your questions there: you’ll get a bigger response.
???
William, I’ve followed the link to your website and see that you’ve copied entire articles and blog posts there, which is not acceptable. You’ve not even linked back to the original articles, or acknowledged any of them properly. You do not have my permission to do this, and I bet you don’t have permission from the other writers either.
For example, this is all my work:
http://softeampact.forumcircle.com/viewtopic.php?t=363
Here you’ve reproduced an article by Jenny Bent:
http://softeampact.forumcircle.com/viewtopic.php?t=368
This is from another website and again, you’ve infringed their copyright:
http://softeampact.forumcircle.com/viewtopic.php?t=364
Your first step is to delete all of those articles you’ve used without permission and to put up a full and sincere apology for having misused copyrighted material in such a way. And not just the few pieces I’ve linked to there: every single article that you’ve used in that way has to go, right now. This is serious stuff, William. You’re on the brink of getting sued for it.
Your second step is to learn about copyright and fair use, and to make sure you understand it, and to follow the guidelines of fair use whenever you quote anything again.
You have 48 hours to take my work down. If it’s still up after that time, I’ll take action.
And thanks for clearing the underline up, not a matter of observation but of experience.
This is not a court of law. I’m not obliged to share any evidence, nor instruct any on logical deduction or analysis. I’m also disinclined to suppress wild flights of imagination in which others may feel inclined to indulge.
Congratulations on your cycling qualification.
Perry McDaid wrote:
I observe that the name of the person who left a comment–you’ll note that it’s not a tag, as “tag” has a specific meaning in this context–is not underlined. I observe that when I hold my cursor over it, it doesn’t provide me with a link to follow. I observe that you’re perhaps not quite conversant with internet conventions if you don’t know what this means.
I have experience with blog-visitors like you.
Too bloody right it’s not a Court of law. It’s my blog, and therefore my rules apply assuming, of course, that I don’t attempt to override statute with the rules I inflict on you all.
I don’t oblige anyone to share evidence; I just ask that someone makes a claim here that they are able to back it up appropriately; and that everyone does their your best to be both logical and reasonable.
If you are unable to support your own claims to a reasonable degree I have to question your motives for making those claims; and your apparent determination to be neither logical nor reasonable in your comments here makes me assume that either you’re incapable of such thought-processes, or that you’ve decided to be difficult.
And yet you make claims which you prove are wrong when you subsequently attempt to back them up; and then you get all snitty with me when I take you to task.
Perry, please stop being so very pompous and irritable. You’re not helping anyone learn more about YWO, and you’re not presenting yourself in a good light. Your experience here would be far more pleasant and productive if you’d relax a bit and stop seeing so much as a threat.
Thank you. I am very proud of it as I was relatively young when I took the test. I rode without stabilisers and completed the course in record time.
When I was a senior manager in a huge company, several years ago now, where others had their degree certificates framed on their office walls I had my cycling proficiency test certificate and my swimming confidence certificate. I felt that in many ways they were more of an achievement. I still do.
Dear Jane, I think it best that I apologise here on your blog, for everyone to see, for infringing on your copyright. I have deleted everything on the site and will follow your instructions to the letter.
Thank you for your patience and your consideration.
William.
Dear me
No, you haven’t “had experience with blog visitors like me”. Yes, I’m not overly familiar with internet conventions and made a mistake with the link using the email reference rather than somewhere you could at least be assured I was actually a person. Here it is now: http://ie.linkedin.com/pub/perry-mcdaid/13/194/197. Sorry if I haven’t used your link app correctly, but it will work if you use the details in the search engine.
And yep, “tag” to me just meant label, a point of reference, not a link bag to some sort of biography. So, colour me educated.
The information I provided is bona fide. Believe it, or believe it not. It was meant to supplement information on YWO’s status and frankly provided more reliable research that a lot of newspaper articles. It came direct from the council public relations office. There’s no reference because it was a private email.
I’m afraid I’m not being “snitty”. Quite the reverse, actually, since I find your attitude sadly puzzling. I can understand you’re being wary. It is your blog. However your adversarial responses to my factual offerings put no-one in a bad light but yourself.
As regards the issue you appear to have with paper qualifications: like yourself I was working straight from school. I had to, and worked myself into a very respectable position. I only mentioned my qualifications in business law in conjunction with the reference to the letterhead subject, where the company named on statements and bills must be a legal person (a company being such) actually party to the contract. I’ve no idea how this might translate to the US statutes.
I’m also curious to hear how you figure that I disproved my “claims” – whatever they were. I provided data. I provided a quote from an email from the Arts Council stipulating not only that the award was made in 2008 for the development of FAR, but that YWO would be contacted to take down the council logo from their site.
Now I may well have travelled from the mildly amused to the snippy end of the spectrum in the course of this dialogue, but people tend to do that when attempts to be informative are thrown back in their face and the worst is assumed of them.
Insults don’t help either. I’m not being pompous and irritable. I’m remaining adult and struggling to retain a sense of humour when it comes to your responses.
I understand that you are trying to be a watchdog of sorts for we inexperienced writers. I just hope you are able to identify the signs of obsession if you encounter them.
Meanwhile, be assured I regard neither yourself nor this site as a threat. Further I had not intended to pose one on any level.
You Write On
As I’m sure it is with anyone who has any kind of interest, one eventually tends to seek out like minded individuals or groups, to improve, compare, be inspired, or to simply be assured you’re not a lone dreamer of impossible goals. Most, if not all writers are individuals in their output time. They toil away alone to then seek out any sign of approval, a hint or full confirmation they are not just wasting everybody’s time, including, possibly most importantly of all, their own.
I arrived at a point in time where writing became more than just a part-time hobby. The impetus was someone telling me my work had merit, that it should be encouraged and pursued to another level. I’m still not sure, I’m not convinced, I haven’t mastered all my handicaps and so I will continue as I was before, to get the pleasure from the word, the creativity, the composition. If on the way it means that others, readers, are impressed, touched, inspired themselves, or even disappointed, then at least some connection exists, at least something that may have not been, is there. Something is happening.
Of course everyone wants to improve, be the best there is, or at least get better in whatever it is they do, and that has been my aim. With that in mind I joined an online group of writers. Most, far more experienced and talented and sure. I was in my element, it seemed like heaven and my work immediately improved, as did my confidence, which up to then, had held me back from exploring areas I thought far too far from reach, or present capability. The concept was a brilliant one, a peer group to improve and share the progress and the learning. Unfortunately, as time goes by ones eyes begin to see, and once they’re opened wide begin to focus on the hidden factors. So many there to make a Machiavellian weep. So, such a shame. Departure.
But now the better news. A newer group emerges soon. No details yet as testing phases are still operating as I write, but this little guinea-pig is squealing with delight; so pleased. So looking forward to the launch day. So happy that I’m writing on, and reading, and publishing, and you can too. Stay tuned.
Tuned in.
Perry McDaid wrote:
Oh, but I SO have.
I think you are; try reading the comments more closely and you might get it; I think you meant “your” there, not “you’re”; yes it is; and I disagree.
It’s not paper qualifications I have an issue with, it’s people being boasty about them; and you’re making some very unsafe assumptions about my education and my career path.
I might well be wrong here, but doesn’t the US have a constitution? And what does the US legal system have to do with YouWriteOn, or this discussion?
You claimed that you’d been told by ACE that “neither YWO or NBA have been in receipt of funding since 2008”, then quoted from ACE’s letter and showed that they said no such thing. Please try to keep up.
Please read back through this thread. Read my comments closely, and assume—just for a while—that I’m trying to ensure that we don’t mislead anyone here. Stop being irritated with me, and just listen.
Don’t worry. You haven’t.
Tyler Wills wrote:
There are already several very well-established writing groups online, which have a well-informed membership made up of a broad mix of new writers, successful professional writers, editors and agents. AbsoluteWrite, Litopia, the Word Cloud and WriteWords come to mind and I know that all four of them have members who have said they’d never have been published without the help they received there.
I wish the new group much success but for those of you who’d rather find a new writing home right now, you already have somewhere else to go.
Agreed.
And the more the merrier!
I have not explored them all, but Mr Bingham’s, to me any rate, seems top-notch.
Struggling authors do however tend to shy away from up-front charges for improvement or assistance with final publication, however small or reasonable those charges may seem.
Not pointing any fingers at any endeavour here, but when suspicions begin and blog comments arise, anywhere, one does begin to adopt a wary attitude to the bottom line or reasoning behind a particular venture. Any venture.
Excellent site by the way, thank you.
Tyler Wills wrote:
All of the places I listed are good. There are plenty of others which aren’t, however, so do please be careful.
And so they should. However, all but one of the sites I listed are completely free to use and have areas where members can share their work and help one another improve; and the one site which does charge a fee–WriteWords–charges a relatively small fee, and offers good value for money in return.
The editorial services offered by the Writers’ Workshop are not part of WordCloud, which is the discussion forum; and those editorial services are very good. I know some of the people involved and have no hesitation in recommending them.
Understood, and thank you for your frankness and advice, obviously deriving from your experience and contacts in the field. From a relative newcomer it is a case of; ‘Once bitten…’
The shame I think, and correct me if I am wrong again, is that there is a general attitude to tempt writers to a contractual phase, whether this be for assistance in synopsis and first chapter developmental help, a self publishing scenario or promise of Agent/Publisher introductions.
This when a simple read through of the entire MS could very well reveal the worthlessness of further expenditure in time or money. I’m not suggesting that this has happened to me, I haven’t even gotten that far as there is no one in my opinion who is prepared to offer this service without a substantial fee.
That leaves the peer groups, who again, and understandably, generally will only cover a small section of any work submitted. Yes, improvement in ones writing will or should develop, but if one’s aim is to get something specifically pushed towards publication, then where does one go to get honest advice before spending what could be further wasted resources?
As you quite rightly point out there are many places which would not be recommended without a ‘Be Careful’ warning, which is, in my mind, a signal to all the honest places to make it as clear as possible that there are no strings attached to what is on offer, which should be simply an avenue for any writer to further his craft, and if that craft cannot possibly be nurtured to any form of useful conclusion commercially, then this should be made clear from the outset.
Sorry to have rambled on, but just to clear readers suppositions; I had elected to pay for professional editing services for an 80,000 first novel rather than go through the possibly wasted months, and torture, as per my previous experience, of joining and trying another established peer group, when as a guinea-pig in the one about to be launched and being tested now, I can already see the advantages of their ideals and set concepts – advantages for all writers not the profitability of the venture.
Tyler Wills wrote:
I think what you’re saying is that people try to get writers to pay for stuff, when all the writers need is someone who knows what they’re doing to read their entire ms and give them a little feedback on it.
It sounds simple enough, but it’s very time-consuming to do; and if agents and editors were to do this for every submission they receive they’d not only have no time left over to deal with their existing, money-making clients, they’d not have time to eat, sleep or speak either.
Further, it’s expecting someone to give away their hard-won expertise and skill for free. Would you expect your plumber to come round and tell you how to fix your leaky pipe without charging you anything?
If you use peer reviews to work on isolated pieces of work then no, they’re not going to help you evaluate the quality of your ms overall. But if you use them to highlight issues which might recur throughout your work–in other words, if you really learn from them, and don’t forget the advice given as soon as you’ve dealt with the original piece which was critiqued–then you can use them to help with your book as a whole.
If you want professional advice on your book then you can submit it, and see how well that goes: if you get only form rejections then you know you still need to do a lot of work; if you get personalised rejections, then you know you’re geeting closer.
Or you could pay for advice. In my view it’s reasonable for writers to do this because I know how time-consuming and stretching it can be to provide such feedback. Only writers must be very careful who they work with here, because there are scammers out there who are more interested in the health of someone’s bank account than in the quality of their work; and if a publisher or agent suggests their own paid-for editorial help then be very careful indeed.
I’ve seen many such ventures start and then collapse over the years, so forgive me if I’m cynical. I do hope that it succeeds, though, and I wish you all luck.
I am a mediator on an author support site called Softeampact. We do not publish, we have no “friending clubs” there are no competitions or publishing contracts on offer.
I look upon advising young or new authors on editing techniques the same way I do when helping a neighbour with, for example: Her/his bicycle. A flat tyre, a broken chain and so on. I don’t do it for “free”; neither do I expect a reward. Neighbours are a sort of relation; they live next door, on the same street and in your district.
It’s the same with writing, we are closer because of technology, so it’s no problem to sit down and tap on the keys.
Now, there are people who believe that because they went to the trouble to learn to write by studying that it’s “payback time”, but who are they to say that ‘this is wrong, or that is wrong’? Who watches the watchers?
Paying to be published (and everything that goes with it) and call it what you want, cos in the end it’s all about the money, it’s not about writing at all, or publishing, it’s about the money, your money, your money in their pocket.
If you want to know something about writing, then read more, read the classics, not the cheap stuff on Amazon (where, incidentally my 19 books are)go to your library, take a camp bed and stay overnight if you can, and eat, breathe and sleep, poetry, essays, short stories and not the padded crap of “best-seller authors on the New York times best seller list.”
Ignore comments like “The best **** *** story ever written”. These comments are crap.
In my opinion, of all the authors in the writing world of today, only one out of one million is going to make it. All the rest is hype.
Over 106,000,000 people speak and read English around the world. It’s a versatile language and its 150,000 years old.
Learn English, and read, and read, and read, and get the hell out of here, and read, and read, and write, and write, and write…
William-Stephen Taylor wrote:
But there is plagiarism there, William / Thomas, and copyright infringement, and sneering at writers who object to such things–much of which comes directly from you. I wouldn’t touch your forum with a ten foot pole and strongly advise writers to avoid it.
You are not invited.
AND THANK YOU FOR ALLOWING ME TO PRINT THE TRUTH, YOU’RE NOT SUCH A BAD PERSON AS PEOPLE MAKE YOU OUT TO BE; BUT THEN AGAIN, I GNORE THEM AND FORM MY OWN OPINIONS:
And the term is: ‘A ten-foot barge pole’ (As barge poles are ten feet long.)
Ah, William / Thomas. You are the master of social media.
I prefer not to gnore people: it is somewhat tiring. And while all barge poles might be ten feet long, not all ten foot long poles are barge poles.
Now, shall we get back to discussing YouWriteOn? Or have you completely lost interest in the subject?